Older Siblings versus Younger Siblings

[Falconer]

I think their relationship is very equal (as equal as it can be when one is your G-d) and they stems from being very close in childhood. I think there is a distinct difference from the top four siblings and the bottom four siblings and that is partly because of the example Remin and Kudorin had already set.

  That never occurred to me... How would you define that difference?

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

That's an interesting point and a great way to examine the characters.

-Matthew

[Diamond]

I think the older four are more mature, as is necessary, because their jobs require social maturity. They all have a predisposition for their birthright, plus years of tutoring and mentoring. I think everything in their lives encouraged K,R,O, and S to be become more mature earlier.

Whereas D, A, T, and E can do their jobs well while still being a little younger at heart socially. As long as they have a good work ethic and get everything done that they are responsible for, no one is looking to them for the same type of wisdom you would expect from a deity, the spiritual leader of a major religion, the world's most influential diplomat, and the highest judicial authority in the country.

I think that with the fire twins, it's good for their creativity not to grow up too fast. 

Extra is the spoiled younger brother and that's just that. 

Desin doesn't need to have profound, thought provoking euphemisms to grow crops and sell vegetables. He gets up early to get his job done, and after he works hard he plays hard. I like Desin.  Not much phases him.

(I just realized that the siblings' initials spell out Kros Date.  )

- Diamond

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

I see more of a depth, a weightiness, gravitas, to KROS, than to DATE.

Their jobs deal with people.  I like the way you termed it, "social maturity."  I think that there's psychological maturity involved, too.

Desin has a lot of people working under him, but his job is about food and crops and harvesting.  Anosanim has a lot of people under him, but his job is about building and engineering.  Talin has a lot of people under him, but his job is about paintings and pottery and clothes.

KROS' jobs are about people.  Desin understands the way things grow; Anosanom and Talin understand lines and angles and shadows and balance.  KROS understand people, and psychology, and the gods.

Ah, the gods.  That's another aspect.  Kudorin is a god.  Remin's job is to connect the people to the gods.  Orinakin's job is to represent Anosukinom, a god.  Another reason we'd see more depth in them.

I'm just thinking out loud, so feel free to join in.

-Matthew

[Magical_Jen]

 As long as they have a good work ethic and get everything done that they are responsible for, no one is looking to them for the same type of wisdom you would expect from a deity, the spiritual leader of a major religion, the world's most influential diplomat, and the highest judicial authority in the country.

I- Diamond

  I never would have thought that the wisdom that Desin, Anosanim, and Talin had to offer would be overshadowed by their brothers talents.  If anything, I would consider the wisdom they have to offer to be more important or more influential on an international scale then some of there older brothers in some cases. 

For instances, people outside of Orina Anoris  may recognize Kudorin and Remin as two very important people because they are imports figures in the most powerful country in the world but a person from Grintzadiwtch may not  respect there religious view. Orinkain despite being a skilled diplomat with a wealth of knowledge is only effective if the people he is working with are willing to compromise especially since he does not really impose or make ultimatums with those he deals with. When he does help I am sure there are nations that are always looking for an alternation motive. Selorin maybe admired because of his dedication to justice and education but, in nations that practice capital punishment may not approver of his lax judicial system.  Also in nations where they have a more Jacacean styled educational system, may consider the wisdom Selorin has to offer on the subject of education to be inferior to any of the practice that they have in place.

However if Desin tells a nation suffering from crop failure how to add properly nourish their soil to ensure a better harvest,  or if Anosanim send the blue prints for a irrigation system, and Talin offer  advice on how to boost local commerce I doubt anyone would doubt there wisdom. They can offer tangible solutions  to peoples problems. If there logic is sound then it's harder to dismiss there reasoning like a person can if you having a religious debate with remin, a social political argument with Orinakin. I feel like on an international scale, the wisdom Desin, Anosanim and Talin have to offer is universal and less likely to be met with suspicion.

[JaeFire]

You have interesting points, and I understand what you're saying, but I think, honestly, that your argument inherently uses the concept of "wisdom" and "technical expertise" as the same thing when there are important distinctions between them.

  I never would have thought that the wisdom that Desin, Anosanim, and Talin had to offer would be overshadowed by their brothers talents.  If anything, I would consider the wisdom they have to offer to be more important or more influential on an international scale then some of there older brothers in some cases. 

For instances, people outside of Orina Anoris  may recognize Kudorin and Remin as two very important people because they are imports figures in the most powerful country in the world but a person from Grintzadiwtch may not  respect there religious view. Orinkain despite being a skilled diplomat with a wealth of knowledge is only effective if the people he is working with are willing to compromise especially since he does not really impose or make ultimatums with those he deals with. When he does help I am sure there are nations that are always looking for an alternation motive. Selorin maybe admired because of his dedication to justice and education but, in nations that practice capital punishment may not approver of his lax judicial system.  Also in nations where they have a more Jacacean styled educational system, may consider the wisdom Selorin has to offer on the subject of education to be inferior to any of the practice that they have in place.

However if Desin tells a nation suffering from crop failure how to add properly nourish their soil to ensure a better harvest,  or if Anosanim send the blue prints for a irrigation system, and Talin offer  advice on how to boost local commerce I doubt anyone would doubt there wisdom. They can offer tangible solutions  to peoples problems. If there logic is sound then it's harder to dismiss there reasoning like a person can if you having a religious debate with remin, a social political argument with Orinakin. I feel like on an international scale, the wisdom Desin, Anosanim and Talin have to offer is universal and less likely to be met with suspicion.

DAT offers advice (and sometimes people) to other countries when they are asked of it by the Pharaoh (like what happened with Pirsotu), but essentially the work they do is within Orina Anoris.  I agree that on an international scale, their technical knowledge and expertise is greatly useful, but the type of influence they have on the international scene is not the same type of influence as their brothers have.  DAT influences the international market in a way that very directly correlates with commerce, architectural/cultural trends and fads, with trade, with influencing the rise and fall of international market prices for goods (agriculture, especially).

However, that is not at all the same type of influence that the deity-leader of the most powerful country in the world (Anosukinom) has, or the most important and influential religious leader in the world (Anoremin) has.  I find your argument to be implying that the rest of the world outside Orina Anoris does not regard religion as very important (implying that religious leaders are not very important), which is simply not the case in the ITL world.  Even Jacaceans, who are the most advanced and scientific, are extremely religious (it's just that their method of getting close to their gods is scientific). 

Anosukinom is deeply influential--assuming that you were a person in ITL who wasn't a fool, would you ignore the warnings or advice of a god?  What if you were a king, and he warned you of a later catastrophe, would you ignore him/her?  And, assuming that your national character had molded you to be religious (as many people in ITL are), would you ignore the royal high priest--the most powerful religious figure in the world besides the living god, a figure who YOUR religious leaders probably respect very, very highly?  You would probably respect him, too, and would be influenced by what he said to your religious leaders, which would affect your life. 

In ITL, the gods are real, very real, so the wisdom and influence of Anosukinom and Anoremin are profound, and entirely different from the "technical expertise" of their younger brothers (DAT).  Knowing what your gods want is very important, so, sure, yes, you could ignore what Anosukinom and Anoremin tell you about what your gods want from you, but you should do so with caution.  They're not charlatans, not fakes--they're the real thing.  Where DAT affect things and objects in a tangible way, like you said, KROS affect people and the way that they think and run their countries, rule their people, see and understand their gods.

Whether kings and sultans and prime ministers and presidents heed their advise is up to them, but the fact that Orina Anoris is the oldest, most powerful nation in the world, with their people blessed and completely free of disease (which is INSANE), their country free from natural disaster, tells them that there is something truly special about Orina Anoris, a name that means "land of the gods."  It would be folly to ignore them, or at least not be wary and intimidated by their power as a nation.  When a nation is that powerful, people tend to listen the rulers of that nation--and Anosukinom is undoubtedly the ruler, and Anoremin after him is undoubtedly powerful, because ruling the priesthood means running the country and being influential with other religious leaders, who in turn influence their own people, and on and on.

Wisdom and technical knowledge are not the same, and though they are both influential, they're not at all influential in the same way.  The difference between being so close to the gods that they can give advice about them, shed light on their signs, influencing the world with what they know--

(Ex: Ch.68:

His words struck Remin with a ring of truth.  The others said, “Yes, coming together.”  “The gods wish to join with us.”  “We must prepare for them.”

No, no, that wasn’t it.  “We have all come together,” Remin said.  “Our nations joined in cooperation to help Vafiance.  We have all had the chance to prove ourselves, in this way, and some of us have.  There will be further opportunities.”  Distracted by the whispering around him, he blocked out sound, staring into the air across the table, mentally stretching and searching for the truth that the gods bestowed upon him.  “Every day is another opportunity.  There’s been strife, famine, war, violence, rioting, revolution.  We’ve abused and neglected and threatened each other.”  Closing his eyes, he sought further revelation.  “Praise Setanoto, please grant me the wisdom and understanding I need to guide my people.”  Realizing that he was slipping into ancient languages, he breathed deeply, returning to modern Anorian.  “Cooperation.  Unity.  We must come together.  We must help each other.  We must share our knowledge and resources.  We must encourage the best in each other.  Unity can come to us, total alliance is possible, if we only trust in each other.”

It was over.  It was gone.  Whatever had come to him, had left him.  Disoriented, Remin opened his eyes.  The room was brighter than he remembered, and everyone stared at him, some in awe, some in confusion, some in wonder.

“The time is now.”  The words came to Remin slowly, as he met everyone’s eyes around the table.  “The unity of our world is within our grasp.”)

--is not comparable with the influence, for instance, that Talin has in helping Pirsotu's economy.  I'm not saying Talin's knowledge isn't important, but that on the scale of international influence, what Nisutalin has to say versus what Anoremin has to say are not even on the same wavelength, because they don't influence the same things.  They don't influence the same people.  They don't influence the same types of ideas. 

On an international scale, the fact that Hanibulatin, the royal architect, can make a better carriage than the Jacacean empire only matters in terms of commerce.  The fact that Hanibulatin helps Pirsotu and any other country with their irrigation systems is not wisdom, it's technical knowledge (which is great, but again, it's not the same kind of world-changing influence).  Yes, Desin can grow more crops to sell on the international market than basically anyone in the world, but that doesn't mean he has the same kind of pull with kings and religious leaders that Anosukinom or Anoremin have with them (remember, Anosukinom wields power not only as a god, but as the most powerful world leader, and that in ITL, religious leaders greatly influence their respective countries--I mean, in Nosupolis, the priests don't even bow to the King, because they're servants of the gods, not of men).
—

As to Orinakin and Selorin, they're very influential as well.  Orinakin doesn't simply settle disputes between warring countries (which, because of the deserved reputation of Anorian royal diplomats as excellent and trusted mediators, actually changes the fate of nations), but represents the living god, represents the most powerful man in the world.  Orinakin, through negotiations and trade agreements, can change the entire course of history for countries. 

Ex: Ch.34: Seeing Orinakin in meetings during the day gave Bade a new appreciation for Orinakin’s diplomatic skill; Orinakin’s knowledge of international trade was formidable, and it was obvious from a few matter-of-fact comments that Orinakin held Nosupolis’s future in his hands.  A few words from Orinakin could mean unprecedented prosperity for a country used to making due with limited resources, which Bade found intimidating and really, really arousing.

We saw with Fet Kailoe's Orinakin, and we see it with Orinakin now, that they do everything they can (and they do a lot, because they have a ton of clout) to protect other countries, to help them thrive, to prevent wars or at least stop them.  That's hugely influential, and even though it annoys conquering nations, it gives them a great reputation of being generally trustworthy.  (Hell, they're cialexes, right?  They even get made fun of for being so peace-loving, so it's hard to view them with complete suspicion.)  Their influence is found throughout the dynasty. 

Ex: Ch.83.2: “In the days of Anosamim Inanodat Orinakin A Tili, his wife was kidnapped and held hostage in an attempt to draw attention to the plight of the Garset revolutionaries.  After four days, they bound her and threw her into the Stangor River, presuming her dead.  She survived and made her way through the woods until she found help.”

The kidnappers would never have gone that far if they didn't think that Orinakin was powerful enough to change the fate of the Garset revolutionaries.  Orinakin's power and influence as the representative of Orina Anoris, of Anosukinom, is immense.  He mediates because that's what Anosukinom wants, but that's not his main job.  He does not simply engage in “social political argument” with passerby—he engages in social and political argument/dialogue with the heads of nations, and if he doesn’t like what he hears, he has the power to cut off Anorian trade with their countries if he likes—and bring his allies to cut off trade with them as well.  That could crash an economy; even if Jacacea swooped in, that still might not be enough time to ward off disaster. 

Ex: Ch.77: “If the sultan can’t admit that he’s not the only person of worth in the world, if he can’t act like a member of this planet as responsible for the state of the world as the rest of us, then we’ll cease to treat him as a member of the world.  If he’s determined to be independent and on his own, then we’ll be happy to leave him alone.”

Bade frowned.  That made sense, but it also sounded childish.  Then again, the sultan was acting like a spoiled child, so maybe he needed to be treated like one.

“It is childish.  But it works.”  Orinakin tipped his head to one side, lowering his shoulder as his hair fell forward.  It was a silent request to be caressed, and Bade didn’t hesitate to acquiesce, running his fingers through Orinakin’s long, silky hair, brushing against his scalp.  “Every time we’re forced into this position, and we withdraw, the sultan acts indignant for a while, and then pouts and sulks, and then gives in and does what we asked for in the beginning, and then we reward him by extending our cooperation again.  It’s a tedious process, and it wastes time, but at least it gets results.”

Still, “What happens during the time he’s feeling sorry for himself?”

“We do what needs to be done.  We step in and compensate for whatever he’s refusing to provide.  We don’t punish his allies by withdrawing from them.  We try to see that no one but the sultan suffers for it.”

I’m not saying he would do those things in general (except to the Sultan), because that’s not in Orinakin’s (or Anosukinom’s) nature.  But it is within the realm of his duties.  It is within the realm of his power and influence. 

By influencing people, Anosukinom, Remin, and Orinakin all influence nations.  Perhaps Selorin applies most to your argument in terms of international scale directly (unless it was through conferences with other judges, but for the most part it has to be through the royal diplomat’s influence— Ch.83: “It’s been widely known for thousands of years that the Anorian royal diplomat may try to influence, but will not interfere in, the laws of other nations.  Your stance on capital punishment is understood, Prince Anosamim Inanodat Orinakin A Nimi.  Consider your complaint acknowledged.” ), but I doubt that 6,000 years of Anorian justice has not influenced countries around the globe, and I’m sure that over the course of those 6,000 years--of having the royal diplomat travel the world, influencing cultures and countries (and their judicial systems)--many countries (even those that no longer exist) have changed their judicial policies for a more humane treatment towards criminals and the accused.

Anyway, I agree with you that DAT are not looked on with suspicion, because it's hard to suspect technical knowledge, and that they do have international influence.  I simply disagree that their influence is the same or exceeds the influence of KRO (and maybe S), and disagree that KRO (and maybe S, because his influence is spread through O) have less influence on the international scene.

- Jae

[Diamond]

Magical_Jen, JaeFire  great arguments.

I agree that KROS is probably more influential internationally than DAT. Their judgment is more respected internationally, as Jae laid out, because of their wisdom. DAT also has a huge impact on the global economy and international affairs.

But international influence addresses the effect and not the cause, so in a way I think the international clout of the Seven Siblings is irrelevant to the maturity argument.

The 18 Anorian gods placed a deity and six additional siblings in power to run Orina Anoris specifically, not to rule the world. Orinakin's primary job is to address international politics that specifically have an impact on Orina Anoris, and to address problems between other nations secondarily. He only exists because Orina Anoris has to interact with the outside world to run effectively. The other countries are lucky that he does his job well enough that he has extra time to mediate their problems too.

I think that KROS in any generation tend to develop into mature young rulers faster than DATE for 3 reasons:

• 1. Nature
  
  Examining nature vs. nurture helps us determine which parts of their personality they were born with and which parts are learned. The Seven Siblings are not simply clones of the same person birthed into the world over and over again by each successive pharaoh. They are individuals with likes and dislikes, interests and proclivities that are as unique as any other person. We see in the fire twins that they always had a passion for other fields of interest  completely outside their birth roles. And we have examples of Siblings in other generations like the diplomat who retired to never travel again. I think that the gods give the Siblings room to be individuals, but still endow them with personality traits that will help them do their jobs well. Even if Desin loved to paint, had a passion for law, and was a natural peace maker, he would still need to be good at math to be the royal agriculturist, so Desin has always been good at math.
  
  I think the gods need KROS to be more mature and wise when they ascend because it will help them lead the people of Orina Anoris well in their destined roles. It's important that they soak up experiences, learn from them, and become wise so that they can impart wisdom to others in their official capacity. Kudorin seems to be very unorthodox. We don't have stories of other Anosukinoms walking barefoot, refusing to fully cover themselves, or lounging on thrones. That combined with the fact that Anorik seems to be very regal leads me to believe that most of the past pharaohs have displayed their vast wisdom on a more regular basis than Kudorin does.
  
  So in short: the gods need KROS to be wise.
  
  
  
• 2. Nurture
  
  The Siblings grew up with a predetermined career that had  six thousand years worth of precedent. From the time they are born, everyone knows what each brother will have to face as part of his job as an adult. So it would only make sense to encourage Remin's ability to assess interpersonal relationships and offer sound advice. It's logical to encourage Orinakin to think with a level head before he speaks during a dispute. Uncle Dimi and all three parents would encourage Selorin to learn more about psychology to help him determine motives and behavior patterns. And, well, do you ever really have to encourage the future living god to be one way or another? I think they probably just let that go.
  
  But my point is, the parents and mentors for KROS would encourage them to be more mature when dealing with people.
  
  
  
• 3. They're big brothers
  
  When someone is a big brother/sister to just one younger sibling they tend to be more responsible and think outside of their own needs when making decisions, compared to their younger siblings. It's also true that the more younger siblings one has, the more a parent-like figure they can become to the youngest ones in the family. It only stands to reason that the second-born of eight children would take on more of a leadership role than the seventh born.  It seems obvious for someone with seven big brothers/sisters and no younger siblings not to assume a leadership role within the family, and to accept being taken care of from all the caretakers in the family. Things don't always turn out this way but it's the likeliest scenario in any large family.
  
  I think that KROS feels it's their responsibility as big brothers to lead by example and show the maturity that they want their little brothers to develop.
  
  Desin seems very much like a middle child without the "middle means I'm not special" complex. ATE seem not to worry about leading the family because they have very capable older brothers doing it already.
  
  DATE is also literally younger than KROS so they would have more maturing to do before they reached the older brothers' ages anyway.
  

The Seven Siblings are all abundantly blessed with technical knowledge and expertise. But I agree that wisdom and maturity are different from know-how. I think it's likely that if we could examine the other generations we might see a regular difference between KROS and DATE. It may split up like KROSD and AT, or KRO SDAT, or something, but I think the maturity patterns would still be the same.

- Diamond

[Falconer]

Magical_Jen argues that DAT have more influence on an international scale than KROS, and I don’t think she's been proven wrong.

DAT offers advice (and sometimes people) to other countries when they are asked of it by the Pharaoh (like what happened with Pirsotu), but essentially the work they do is within Orina Anoris.  I agree that on an international scale, their technical knowledge and expertise is greatly useful, but the type of influence they have on the international scene is not the same type of influence as their brothers have.  DAT influences the international market in a way that very directly correlates with commerce, architectural/cultural trends and fads, with trade, with influencing the rise and fall of international market prices for goods (agriculture, especially).

However, that is not at all the same type of influence that the deity-leader of the most powerful country in the world (Anosukinom) has, or the most important and influential religious leader in the world (Anoremin) has.  I find your argument to be implying that the rest of the world outside Orina Anoris does not regard religion as very important (implying that religious leaders are not very important), which is simply not the case in the ITL world.  Even Jacaceans, who are the most advanced and scientific, are extremely religious (it's just that their method of getting close to their gods is scientific). 

They regard religion has important, but they don't necessarily view Anosukinom as religiously important. Each country has different deities, and remember Bade, before he really knew Anosukinom, didn’t even believe he was really a deity. So I don’t see how Anosukinom might have an influence beyond that of the leader of a powerful country. His divinity doesn’t come into play politically.

Anosukinom is deeply influential--assuming that you were a person in ITL who wasn't a fool, would you ignore the warnings or advice of a god?  What if you were a king, and he warned you of a later catastrophe, would you ignore him/her?  And, assuming that your national character had molded you to be religious (as many people in ITL are), would you ignore the royal high priest--the most powerful religious figure in the world besides the living god, a figure who YOUR religious leaders probably respect very, very highly?  You would probably respect him, too, and would be influenced by what he said to your religious leaders, which would affect your life. 

So his influence as a god is limited to Orina Anoris. His power reaches beyond the borders of the country, but his religious and political (as in the fact that he's a god affecting politics) influence is confined to Orina Anoris. Same for Remin.

In ITL, the gods are real, very real, so the wisdom and influence of Anosukinom and Anoremin are profound, and entirely different from the "technical expertise" of their younger brothers (DAT).  Knowing what your gods want is very important, so, sure, yes, you could ignore what Anosukinom and Anoremin tell you about what your gods want from you, but you should do so with caution.  They're not charlatans, not fakes--they're the real thing.  Where DAT affect things and objects in a tangible way, like you said, KROS affect people and the way that they think and run their countries, rule their people, see and understand their gods.

Whether kings and sultans and prime ministers and presidents heed their advise is up to them, but the fact that Orina Anoris is the oldest, most powerful nation in the world, with their people blessed and completely free of disease (which is INSANE), their country free from natural disaster, tells them that there is something truly special about Orina Anoris, a name that means "land of the gods."  It would be folly to ignore them, or at least not be wary and intimidated by their power as a nation.  When a nation is that powerful, people tend to listen the rulers of that nation--and Anosukinom is undoubtedly the ruler, and Anoremin after him is undoubtedly powerful, because ruling the priesthood means running the country and being influential with other religious leaders, who in turn influence their own people, and on and on.

Again, not everybody is *aware* of all the repercussions of the divinity of Anosukinom, not everybody even knows that he is in fact the real deal. I think most of it is respect and fear because of Orina Anoris’ predominance as a country.

Wisdom and technical knowledge are not the same, and though they are both influential, they're not at all influential in the same way.  The difference between being so close to the gods that they can give advice about them, shed light on their signs, influencing the world with what they know—
Technical knowledge is marketable, wisdom is not. Wisdom is very much contextual, technical knowledge is not. While other nations can recognize Orina Anoris’ superiority from the longevity of their carriages, they may not care so much about the fact that they never condemn innocent people or that they are close to their gods.
[...]

--is not comparable with the influence, for instance, that Talin has in helping Pirsotu's economy.  I'm not saying Talin's knowledge isn't important, but that on the scale of international influence, what Nisutalin has to say versus what Anoremin has to say are not even on the same wavelength, because they don't influence the same things.  They don't influence the same people.  They don't influence the same types of ideas. 

On an international scale, the fact that Hanibulatin, the royal architect, can make a better carriage than the Jacacean empire only matters in terms of commerce.  The fact that Hanibulatin helps Pirsotu and any other country with their irrigation systems is not wisdom, it's technical knowledge (which is great, but again, it's not the same kind of world-changing influence).  Yes, Desin can grow more crops to sell on the international market than basically anyone in the world, but that doesn't mean he has the same kind of pull with kings and religious leaders that Anosukinom or Anoremin have with them (remember, Anosukinom wields power not only as a god, but as the most powerful world leader, and that in ITL, religious leaders greatly influence their respective countries--I mean, in Nosupolis, the priests don't even bow to the King, because they're servants of the gods, not of men).
—

As to Orinakin and Selorin, they're very influential as well.  Orinakin doesn't simply settle disputes between warring countries (which, because of the deserved reputation of Anorian royal diplomats as excellent and trusted mediators, actually changes the fate of nations), but represents the living god, represents the most powerful man in the world.  Orinakin, through negotiations and trade agreements, can change the entire course of history for countries. 
[…]
We saw with Fet Kailoe's Orinakin, and we see it with Orinakin now, that they do everything they can (and they do a lot, because they have a ton of clout) to protect other countries, to help them thrive, to prevent wars or at least stop them.  That's hugely influential, and even though it annoys conquering nations, it gives them a great reputation of being generally trustworthy.  (Hell, they're cialexes, right?  They even get made fun of for being so peace-loving, so it's hard to view them with complete suspicion.)  Their influence is found throughout the dynasty.

I think a great deal of Orinakin’s power and influence as a royal diplomat comes from Orina Anoris’ position as the most powerful country (a position earned primarily from the strength of their economy—also, to a lesser extent, from their political stability which is creditable to KROS.).

[…]

By influencing people, Anosukinom, Remin, and Orinakin all influence nations.  Perhaps Selorin applies most to your argument in terms of international scale directly (unless it was through conferences with other judges, but for the most part it has to be through the royal diplomat’s influence— Ch.83: “It’s been widely known for thousands of years that the Anorian royal diplomat may try to influence, but will not interfere in, the laws of other nations.  Your stance on capital punishment is understood, Prince Anosamim Inanodat Orinakin A Nimi.  Consider your complaint acknowledged.” ), but I doubt that 6,000 years of Anorian justice has not influenced countries around the globe, and I’m sure that over the course of those 6,000 years--of having the royal diplomat travel the world, influencing cultures and countries (and their judicial systems)--many countries (even those that no longer exist) have changed their judicial policies for a more humane treatment towards criminals and the accused.

The Anorian justice system rests a great deal on Selorin’s ability to discern the truth. I don’t see how other nations could benefit substantially from that. Of course, they can (and probably do) learn from the system, but the Anorian justice system is not as adaptable or internationally marketable as, say, the Jacacean system.

I agree with Magical_Jen. I think that, with the exception of Orinakin (and Anosukinom, insofar as he's viewed as "the head of the most powerful state in the world"), the older siblings have less influence internationally than the younger ones. Even then, O and S' influence internationally rests quasi-entirely on Orina Anoris' position as the most powerful and wealthiest nation in the world, and this position was earned primarily through Orina Anoris' commercial superiority (creditable to DAT). Of course, Orina Anoris' social and political stability (creditable to KROS) also factors in that, but not as much as trading and production.

That said, I do think that--as Diamond pointed out--KROS have greater responsibilities and are more mature than DAT because they deal with people, souls, etc.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

(This discussion has been interrupted for the following message:

Matthew Haldeman-Time would like to thank Falconer, Jae, Magical_Jen, and Diamond for their contributions to this conversation.  Great work, great discussion, interesting viewpoints, good times.

We now return you to the discussion in progress.)

[Falconer]

*bump*

(thanks Matthew!)

[Magical_Jen]

Every thing that I have wrote will be in DAT colours. Note* I had to change A colour to red becasue his colours didn't show up as well. I'm sure he wouldn't mind sharing T's colour.

You have interesting points, and I understand what you're saying, but I think, honestly, that your argument inherently uses the concept of "wisdom" and "technical expertise" as the same thing when there are important distinctions between them.

Because of KROS profession’s I can understand why you would consider the knowledge that they have to be superior to the knowledge that DAT.  Historically society has revered the men who though there education have pursued greater understanding of religion, Diplomacy and justices.  I think that in overlooking the importance of the knowledge that DAT have to offer then we risk missing the opportunity to gain a greater understanding of not only our world but also the world created in Orina Anoris.  The God created  DAT positions not because   you need some siblings to do the grunt work around Orina Anoris but  because  they themselves with there education  are a part of the Gods plan to make Orina Anoris  a better nation and bring the people closer to there gods.

Okay before can really being to challenge the wisdom of any of the siblings we need to have a working definition as to what wisdom really is. 
OED defines wisdom as:
1. The State of being wise.
2. Experience and knowledge together with the power of applying them critically or practically
3. Prudence: common sense
4. Wise sayings, thoughts. ect regarded collectively (   maybe Remin  is the wisest)

Upon each ascension each sibling receives the knowledge and experiences of there ancestors which provides them with good judgment and the ability to make sensibility decisions. So technically it does not matter what there field of study is in we have to accept that KROSDAT are all-wise because they gods provide them with wisdom. 

However, if you want to get really technical we could also argue that that gifts that the gods  give them upon ascension does not necessarily mean that the individual sibling themselves is wise.
The knowledge and experience that they gain are merely tools that will allow them to make better decisions. How they choose to apply that knowledge and  the results they get form applying that knowledge is technically what gives them  there own personal experiences and therefore wisdom. We could argue that KROSDAT are not truly wise until they being to educate their successors because then they will be imparting their own personal knowledge and experience combined with the understanding of there ancestors.

I find your argument to be implying that the rest of the world outside Orina Anoris does not regard religion as very important (implying that religious leaders are not very important), which is simply not the case in the ITL world.  Even Jacaceans, who are the most advanced and scientific, are extremely religious (it's just that their method of getting close to their gods is scientific). 

If it seemed like I was implying that the other nations are not as religious as other nation that was not my intention actually it is the opposite. What I mean is that nations with a strong religious community or any nation with any religious community or even nations with agnostic or atheist  citizens  maybe less likely to be open there arms to Anorian religion. Let us use your example of Jacacean society. To a scientifically minded Jacacean, they may doubt an Anorian religious sincerity because while Anorians make effort to glorify and praise there Gods, the do not make an effort to understand all aspects of there world and therefore are not truly trying to make an effort tot understand their Gods.  Jacacean and other nations like them may be less likely to taken in the wisdom of religious figures like Remin. Not because Remin is not important as a political figure, but because as a religious leader he may be seen as not doing enough to ensure that his citizens appreciate the magnificent of the gods.

Anosukinom is deeply influential--assuming that you were a person in ITL who wasn't a fool, would you ignore the warnings or advice of a god?  What if you were a king, and he warned you of a later catastrophe, would you ignore him/her?

Was Bade a fool for doubting Anosukinom power of was his father wrong of being wary of a man who claims to raise the sun? The only thing that anyone really knows is what he or she experience.  When Bade first came to Orina Anoris, he mentioned that in his own country the priest at time resort to using magic in order to either trick people into recognizing the power of the gods or even the power they themselves hold as priest.   
So  a person like Bade who comes from a nation were you see  priest split his own tongue  like a snake only to mend it seconds later than I would think that it only natural to doubt.   To an outsider, a group of crazy haired siblings led by a pharaoh that sits on table and eats with his hands and claims to be touched by the gods, would appear touched in the head.  I’m not saying  that people won’t take  the advice of he Kudorin or Remin I saying that they would be right to be wary of the advice they offer. I think it really depends on the advice they have to offer.

Assuming that your national character had molded you to be religious (as many people in ITL are), would you ignore the royal high priest--the most powerful religious figure in the world besides the living god, a figure who YOUR religious leaders probably respect very, very highly?  You would probably respect him, too, and would be influenced by what he said to your religious leaders, which would affect your life. 

Me personally I would say  would have to say yes but that mainly because I don’t  trust the government and I don’t trust the media and I question interactions between  politician. Because I know that in our international framework that any bargains that are made at the top are always done at a cost. If I’m a little proletariat working hard or the money I’m going to question the relationship that the bourgeois religious and political figure are making a the top.  For  the most part, these higher class official with mansion in the city will have more shared interest among themselves then they might have with me a  woolen sock peddler who worries that the rise of cotton imports  will threaten the demand for wools socks.

When a nation is that powerful, people tend to listen the rulers of that nation--and Anosukinom is undoubtedly the ruler, and Anoremin after him is undoubtedly powerful, because ruling the priesthood means running the country and being influential with other religious leaders, who in turn influence their own people, and on and on.

 Yeah but Remin is not necessarly going to use his pulpit to hate on another nation or judge another nations religious practices .  the ishare the responsiblity of running the nation an they all influence there people. I would be more worri started ed  as a world leader if Desin, Anosanim or Talin telling there citizens to not import products ftomm my nation becasue its hurts the Anorian market or because that product is judge by lower standards than Anorian goods. Remin may inspire greater religious devotion in other leader but i just not sure if i would lable his influence as more significant as DAT.
As for  Seloirns significats  I don't think you can credit any of the Selorins as  being the cononerstone for educational and judicial advancements for any nation.  No one is going to refute the fact  that education is an important  or that some one who steals should be punished.  All nations are going to establish a system that allowes for order and growth. I guess you can  argue that in nations where women or minorites or  commoners of a certian station are excluded from the educational system or access to the legal system Selorin can make an effor to argues that consequences  of not harnessing that resousrce or ensuring justice,  but that does not mean  his logical arguement wil lbe able to combate decades or centuries of social political ideology. a moreover, nation that doens't agree that women should be education may not attend a convention  in Orina Anoris  that is discussing the steps a nation could take to get more girls to study science.

That said, I do think that--as Diamond pointed out--KROS have greater responsibilities and are more mature than DAT because they deal with people, souls, etc.

I was going to  wirte some mumbo jumbo about how maybe on uninternational scale   there are going time be times when one sibiling will seem more important or more influencial, but you know what  don't believe it. there is a lots that we don't see  happening behind the scene. everyone of those siblings  have office full of assisitance whom i'm sure handle  correspondance with nations for all over the globe.  I  can't sit here and say that one sibiling is more imporant, I just don't beleive it.
As I read over some of the comment  that are implying that DAT are less mature than KROS, I'm just not seeing how anyone arguing how DAT lack the maturity of KROS is coming to that conclusion. As professionals as speicalist in there field I don't know where we've seen DAt act immaturly.  When they have dealt with business I think they all take there job very seriosuly.   KROSDAT have shown us at different moments  scenes of them at the most mature and immature moments and i don't think  we take how the siblings act amongst themselves at home and uses it  to judge how we think they may behave when they are at work.
Moreover for those who argue  that DAT aren't dealing withe souls of ther people I would have to disagree with  that too.
Talin's art and music enriches peoples lives, he capurtes the essence of the world and shares it with others so they can find greater meaning in their lives. his gifts provide people witheh opertuinty to relect on the beauty of the world and  give them reason to give thanks  for what the Gods of given. Anosanim buliding whether it be a temple, a school, staduim provides spaces needed to either gather and worsihip the goods or learn more about the world and to use the gifs that the gods have given you in public to share with other citizens. Last but not least Desin is like the protector of the land.  he encourage the cylce of life and death to renew it self. he shows his people not only how to properly  harness the glories of the earth in a way that honours the gods.  How can anyone  who reads, sees, or hears about the care  and attention gives to someting as little as  growing flowers and then see the results of his labour and not think  Prais Ebanosa! I mean come on, Dat are so important to the longevity of their dynasty and the perception that the world has on Orina Anoris. So until we hear from the stories of all the sibilings and it is proven otherwise  I will continue to believe that KROSDAT are equally important  to the strenght and success of Orina Anoris and just as imporant the world scale.


Moderator note: Sorry, I just snuck in here to format your quotes. - Diamond
Thanks Diamond! I was rushing to get this out before I had to leave and hand in a paper , so thanks for cleaning this up. looking over it again i've found a lot of careless mistakes. I'll fix it up the rest tomorrow after i get some sleep and get back from class.
Cheers!

[SilverMoon28]

I think the older four are more mature, as is necessary, because their jobs require social maturity. They all have a predisposition for their birthright, plus years of tutoring and mentoring. I think everything in their lives encouraged K,R,O, and S to be become more mature earlier.

Whereas D, A, T, and E can do their jobs well while still being a little younger at heart socially. As long as they have a good work ethic and get everything done that they are responsible for, no one is looking to them for the same type of wisdom you would expect from a deity, the spiritual leader of a major religion, the world's most influential diplomat, and the highest judicial authority in the country.

I think that with the fire twins, it's good for their creativity not to grow up too fast. 

Extra is the spoiled younger brother and that's just that. 

Desin doesn't need to have profound, thought provoking euphemisms to grow crops and sell vegetables. He gets up early to get his job done, and after he works hard he plays hard. I like Desin.  Not much phases him.

(I just realized that the siblings' initials spell out Kros Date.  )

- Diamond

Good points, Diamond!

It's true that one would expect more maturity from the oldest four siblings (though sometimes I have to wonder where Kudorin's maturity is.  I love how he can just be a kid at heart).  They have very important jobs to do for their country and maturity is essential here.

Which isn't to say that they can't have a lot of fun - case in point: Remin and his toys... although that's mature...

I'm deviating...

As far as the four younger siblings go... Anosanim and Talin certainly need to have a lighter view on things, as Diamond said, to keep their minds open to creativity.  Desin... I think he does need some maturity (if not a lot of it) because of all the imports and exports he deals with.  I can't imagine how stressful that job is.  But he does indeed play hard after work.

Rini... being one of my favorite siblings... I don't know.  He's the funnest of them all in my opinion, and yet he shows a wisdom beyond his years (praise the ods) by wanting to help the clans on the plains, and, as I've said before, I love that about him.  Not a lot of people his age would get rid of their own comforts in order to do something like that. 

Vani

[Falconer]

  Magical_Jen, I agree with your (original) point, but not with your arguments.

Magical_Jen: Let us use your example of Jacacean society. To a scientifically minded Jacacean, they may doubt an Anorian religious sincerity because while Anorians make effort to glorify and praise there Gods, the do not make an effort to understand all aspects of there world and therefore are not truly trying to make an effort tot understand their Gods.  Jacacean and other nations like them may be less likely to taken in the wisdom of religious figures like Remin. Not because Remin is not important as a political figure, but because as a religious leader he may be seen as not doing enough to ensure that his citizens appreciate the magnificent of the gods.

You’re implying that to Jacaceans, Anorian religious practices are not as good as the Jacacean ones (because they don’t try to understand all aspects of their gods), they lack something (this three-dimensional understanding). That’s what I want to address:

As has been discussed in the Soracic Gods thread, the fact that Anorians do not go out of their way to explore the world doesn’t make them any less religious, even from a Jacacean perspective. I don’t want to repeat what had been said there (it might be good to go over the discussion though, it was really interesting), but essentially, the reason for that is that the nature of the gods and religions in Jacacea and Orina Anoris are fundamentally different. The gods and religion in Jacacea encourage enquiries about the world, encourage questioning and exploring and trying to understand the world and through the world, the gods. Whereas in Orina Anoris, they have a more spontaneous and intimate relationship with the gods (partly due to the fact that one of the gods is physically with them), and they don’t try to understand the gods, they’re not as inquisitive as the Jacaceans because religion permeates all aspects of their lives and they just *live* it, they don’t try to understand it.  It’s more of a sensorial/emotional experience, rather than an intellectual one (like in Jacacea).

So Jacaceans would not doubt the Anorians’ religious sincerity or Remin’s performance and achievements as a religious leader. On the contrary, Xio Voe is very respectful of the Anorian religion. He doubts the divinity of Anosukinom, but not the other aspects of the religion, not the people’s zeal or their relationship with their gods. Same for Bade. In other words, people questioned one aspect of the Anorian religion: Anosukinom’s divinity, not the religion itself or the practices. Hence, Jacaceans would not think that Remin is not doing enough to ensure that his citizens appreciate the magnificence of the gods or that Anorians are not making an effort to fully understand their gods. They would not judge Anorians by their own standards. That would not be fair because the culture is different, the gods are different and the religious practices are different. There’s a lot of religious respect in ITL… I remember when Rini made a scornful comment about the Nosupolin gods, he was dutifully admonished by someone (though I don’t remember who it was).

Magical_Jen: As I read over some of the comment  that are implying that DAT are less mature than KROS, I'm just not seeing how anyone arguing how DAT lack the maturity of KROS is coming to that conclusion. As professionals as speicalist in there field I don't know where we've seen DAt act immaturly.  When they have dealt with business I think they all take there job very seriosuly.   KROSDAT have shown us at different moments  scenes of them at the most mature and immature moments and i don't think  we take how the siblings act amongst themselves at home and uses it  to judge how we think they may behave when they are at work.

Maturity does not equate whether you do your job well or not, or whether you take it seriously or not. KROS are said to be more mature because they understand people better. Kudorin can read minds and hear thoughts, Remin knows when someone needs a blessing, when they need counsel, Orinakin can read people’s emotions, Selorin can tell when they’re not being honest. All of this gives them a better perspective on human nature, on how to deal with people, on how to approach people, and this knowledge gives them an edge on DAT; it’s useful in every single aspect of life, anywhere and at any time, and in any field.

It's true that one would expect more maturity from the oldest four siblings (though sometimes I have to wonder where Kudorin's maturity is.  I love how he can just be a kid at heart).  They have very important jobs to do for their country and maturity is essential here.

The same could be said for the younger ones...

[Diamond]

Magical_Jen: As I read over some of the comment  that are implying that DAT are less mature than KROS, I'm just not seeing how anyone arguing how DAT lack the maturity of KROS is coming to that conclusion. As professionals as speicalist in there field I don't know where we've seen DAt act immaturly.  When they have dealt with business I think they all take there job very seriosuly.   KROSDAT have shown us at different moments  scenes of them at the most mature and immature moments and i don't think  we take how the siblings act amongst themselves at home and uses it  to judge how we think they may behave when they are at work.

Falconer: Maturity does not equate whether you do your job well or not, or whether you take it seriously or not. KROS are said to be more mature because they understand people better. Kudorin can read minds and hear thoughts, Remin knows when someone needs a blessing, when they need counsel, Orinakin can read people’s emotions, Selorin can tell when they’re not being honest. All of this gives them a better perspective on human nature, on how to deal with people, on how to approach people, and this knowledge gives them an edge on DAT; it’s useful in every single aspect of life, anywhere and at any time, and in any field.

All the brothers are professionally mature. That's not at issue. They take their jobs too seriously not to be. Plus they have all ascended, they are actually running the country now, not just apprentices, and work related mistakes could cost the country dearly.

My point is that within their family dynamic KROS is more mature/wise than DATE and I think part of the reason for that is because they have spent their whole lives prepping for their careers. The training for the job had an impact on the boys throughout their lives molding them into the mature men they are today. I don't mean to imply that being fun-loving men makes DATE professionally irresponsible or naive.

I don't think the weight of the job title or the influence of the office is directly the point, either. The point is, when they are all in a room together KROS is more likely to dispense wise advice, and DATE is more likely to be daydreaming, goofing off, or sketching instead of adding to the conversation. KROS is who you go to for help, advice, and a shoulder to lean on; DATE is who you go to for good art or a good time.

Not to say that they are strictly bound to the generalized categorizations, but it's just more common.

- Diamond

[LilacMajesty]

I'm a little confused here.  Other than Rini, didn't ALL of the Siblings spend most of their lives preparing for their roles?

[Diamond]

I'm a little confused here.  Other than Rini, didn't ALL of the Siblings spend most of their lives preparing for their roles?

Why, yes they did and I'm glad you asked.

Kudorin just is/was/will always be Kudorin. Nuff said.

The priest preparation required a lot of meditating, reflection, and self discipline. Remin had to temper his passionate nature and youthful impulsiveness in order to become the spiritual guru you see today. He didn't get all of his priestly composure from the ascension. His job is to counsel other people, and be a marriage counselor among other things.

Orinakin told us that he had to learn to separate his own emotions from other peoples' so that he could feel someone else's anger and still keep a cool head. He had to learn to not only recognize what people are going through, but to communicate what he discerned to opposing sides who misunderstood each other. Anger management, empathy, and constructive problem solving are mature personality traits that would have been encouraged early on.

Discerning the truth isn't all you need to make a sound judgment. As the highest authority in the land everything rests on his shoulders for those who stand before him. So if Selorin were flighty, careless, and forever repeating the same mistakes as a boy, his parents/mentors would have made sure to work on that aspect of his personality so that by the time he ascended he had good decision making skills, exercised sound judgment, and thought before he acted more often than not.

Desin's training has helped him be really good with animals and great with crops and plants. It taught him to read the weather patterns and help him feel connected to the river. He's good at math and he is in touch with nature. But when it comes to personal skills, he's the brother most likely to lose his temper, he can be generally impatient at times, and he gives opinions more often than he gives advice. He's smart, but he's not known as the wisest sibling.

Anosanim knows everything about carriages, he can oversee the building of a stadium, he can design an irrigation system off the top of his head, and he can tell you the full history of balloon travel. As a child he would have been encouraged to build things not break up arguments. His brothers are more likely to come to him for fashion advice than for life's problems. He's always been hopelessly optimistic and his parents/mentors never needed to ask him to focus on the harsh realities of life. If Selorin entertained such romantically positive notions about everyone and everything as a child, he would have been told to examine the reality of situations more carefully in order to make intelligent rulings later on.

Talin learned how to paint with uncanny accuracy, he learned to craft or sculpt anything in every type of medium. He learned everything about marketing pottery and he could write both sonnets and musical scores before his ascension. He would have been encouraged to be creative, to express himself through art. His training was on colors, lines, shapes, and the marketplace, not interpersonal relationships.

Rini was tutored, but he wasn't trained to be anything specific. We all know he isn't mature and no expects him to be.

So as children,  had to learn to be mature before they ascend, whereas  could be socially mature people or not and still do their jobs well. I think it's left up to the individual to mature at their own rate; but the country can't wait around for Remin to grow up. Remin is a priest all day, his office is literally in his house. He has to be the strong spiritual leader for more hours in the day than Anosanim has to build things.

-Diamond

[LilacMajesty]

I respectfully disagree on the matter of  .   One little mistake in the execution of a building could cost hundreds of people their lives.  He's a lot more down to earth and serious than he appears to be. 

[SilverMoon28]

I think that when it comes to his job, Anosanim is as serious as anyone can be.  They all are.  But when it comes to everyday non-work related things, he's more... uh... perky?  It's not that Selorin or Remin are more serious about their work than the younger four.  I mean, Rini doesn't really have a job, but he's darn serious about helping the people on the plains.  He's not doing it to see T'rin every day (though it's an added bonus), he's doing it because he hates the fact that so many people are living that way, and he wants to do something to make their lives better.

Talin... well, actually, he's one of the siblings I consider to be more serious than necessary, but that's because he really cares about his job and he's certainly dedicated to it.  I don't know if I'm making my point clear here...

And Desin... do you guys remember when there was a debate in the throne room and Desin was just refusing to hear what that other guy had to say because he knew that it was wrong?  I can't recall the specifics of that scene (I'm reading again, I'm reading again!!!), but... I guess what I'm trying to say that they're all serious when they need to be and perky/happy when time calls for it.

  : Their jobs might seem 'less serious', though I don't really think they are, because, again, bringing food to people in need is one of the most serious jobs I can think of and architecture is also an important job (I know that nobody's saying that it's not an important job - lemme get my point across :p) because without architects, you wouldn't really have cities... or even tents... you'd have... caves?  Being an artist is also an important thing.  Without art, we wouldn't have stories... nor would we have music (quadruple gasp of horror)!!!  Hell, we wouldn't even have... Matthew!!

Getting back to my point... wait... I'm done

Vani

[Diamond]

Just to be clear: all of  is mature and serious about their jobs. All the Siblings have jobs that are very important. That's why the gods put their positions in place. All of them handle their jobs maturely.

I'm gauging "maturity" by their regular interactions with non-work people and other family members. Not at work, not internationally. Is Anosanim the brother you come to with your problems or the brother you take to the party?

I'm not saying Anosanim is immature. doesn't have to be childish to prove that is mature. Actually  are more mature than the average person. They aren't flighty, forgetfull, silly, or irresponsible.  The question is more mature. As in, "If  are mature young men then does it seem that  are even more mature than them?"

- Diamond

[LilacMajesty]

I see what you're saying now, personal relationships.  Absolutely - in relation to  ,  doesn't quite have that maturity level.  I do agree with that.   Sorry Diamond.

[Diamond]

No apology needed. We are all talking about a lot of things and I think it may have needed clarification. 

- Diamond

[SilverMoon28]

It's true that I'd talk to Selorin or Orinakin about the fate of the world, and Anosanim about which eyeliner goes best with my favorite shirt  .

Remin I'd just... eat alive. *ahem*

Vani

[Magical_Jen]

 

Maturity does not equate whether you do your job well or not, or whether you take it seriously or not. KROS are said to be more mature because they understand people better. Kudorin can read minds and hear thoughts, Remin knows when someone needs a blessing, when they need counsel, Orinakin can read people’s emotions, Selorin can tell when they’re not being honest. All of this gives them a better perspective on human nature, on how to deal with people, on how to approach people, and this knowledge gives them an edge on DAT; it’s useful in every single aspect of life, anywhere and at any time, and in any field.
[The same could be said for the younger ones...

I get what your saying but I don't think that  lack that ability to understand how to properly approach or reach other people.  When Kudorin was conflicted (well as much as a god can be conflicted anyway) over whether or not he should interfere with Orinakin's and Bade future he chose to turn to Desin  in order to talk about his concerns and to listen to his Desin opinion when Anikira, Remin or even his own mother could of offered reassurance.  http://www.matthewhaldemantime.com/InThisLand/inthisland59.html  (first part)Also when Remin was concerned about the public reaction to  his dismissal of Namidakeli Remin chose to got to Desin to find out the peoples reaction, even though  Kudorin or Selorin could have told him our the peoples opinion and  Anosanim and Rini are so well connected. Even though we only really seen  Desin offer assurance to his brothers, I can see him being someone that people he works and his friends with would turn to for held. Desin is a good listener he lets people went but he also knows when to jump in and offer and opinion without getting too metaphorical.

As for Anosanim Selorin said that, “Anosanim’s a friendly person who makes it a point to be kind to everyone.  He’s interested in people, so he talks to them” (56.2. 3). I would think that Anosanim is able to have some many friends and have people respond to him because of is ability to read people. When Anosanim was having problems on his work site, he did not just fire the troubles some works right away. He understood why some of the people had objected to his leadership but he did give them time to adjust. *Later note* A half hour hasn't even passed and now i'm halfway through chapter 126 and matthew has kindof blown my analyzation of Anosanim out of the water. I'll come back with a better argument.

Compared to the rest of the world I think we could say that of the siblings were born with a little bit more insight than the average person. Although ability to understand people were enhanced upon ascension I fell like because in there profession there is a greater chance of them disconnecting emotionally from their people they need that extra boost so that message to the people stays relevant to their needs. Their extra insight works to combat the chance of losing perspective of the world around them, so I am not sure if they have an edge as much it kind of like aid in order to keep up with there work.


*later note* I realized i didn't say anything about Talin. I guess we know that Talin's  excellent analyst of human nature because he is an artist. In the past we have heard the siblings or bade say how authentic all of Talin is painting are. He does not romanticism anything he just depicting things as they are. He captures truth and the essences of the people and society he draws then commits it to page. I do not think that he would have been able to capture all the emotions unless he was an excellent judge of human nature.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

Although  ability to understand people were enhanced upon ascension I fell like because in there profession there is a greater chance of them disconnecting emotionally from their people they need that extra boost so that message to the people stays relevant to their needs. Their extra insight works to combat the chance of losing perspective of the world around them, so I am not sure if they have an edge as much it kind of like aid in order to keep up with there work.

I want to be sure that I understand what you're saying.

There's a greater chance of them disconnecting emotionally because they're exposed to the worst in people and will get bitter and jaded?

There's a greater chance of them disconnecting emotionally because their emotions are so pulled on and yanked at that they'll pull away out of self-preservation?

What makes more likely to become emotionally distant?  Or why are  more likely to remain emotionally connected?  Could it be argued that the royal architect is more likely to lose touch, if anyone is?

Just wanted to clarify the argument.  Thanks for posting!

-Matthew

[Magical_Jen]

I want to be sure that I understand what you're saying.

There's a greater chance of them disconnecting emotionally because they're exposed to the worst in people and will get bitter and jaded?




There's a greater chance of them disconnecting emotionally because their emotions are so pulled on and yanked at that they'll pull away out of self-preservation?

What makes more likely to become emotionally distant?  Or why are  more likely to remain emotionally connected?  Could it be argued that the royal architect is more likely to lose touch, if anyone is?

Just wanted to clarify the argument.  Thanks for posting!

-Matthew
[/quote]

Sorry, my mind is mush I was not clear at all. I hope that this is better.   Yeah that is what I meant. When you study the law sometimes in order to find the best solution for society or in order to protect, your vision of justice or discipline a lawyer or judge are caught up in the politics and may want to rule based on these black and white concrete ideas and forget about the shades of grey. Whenever I think of Law and its relationship to society, I am always reminded of Shakespeare Measure for Measure.  Angelo does have good intentions he wants Vienna to be a morally virtuous society but he ideology and application of the law did not really reflect the reality of the situation.
 With the amount of responsibilities, that Selorin has it would be easier if he applied a very strict application of law but his enhanced understanding allows him to build a system that meets the needs of the nation but also allows room for it to evolve and improve because of his connection with his citizens.

 In regards with Remin, I guess I was thinking that the common citizen would not have the same intense devotions to the Gods like Remin. When he gives a speech or when he is counseling with his people that intensity could act as a barrier but the way that Remin talks about the gods or the way he explained certain concepts of Anorian religion to Bade in the Purple book that kept his message relevant to the needs of he people.  I keep thinking back to the days when I was high school and we would spend so much time going over the Catechisms of the Catholic Church or we would read and discuss the new notices that were coming out of the Vatican.  I would sit and think that this ideology no longer reflects the social political landscape of the people, and I would get frustrated with the ideology, the rituals and all the bureaucracy of the office.

In regards to Orinakin, b I kind of think that his ability to read people  is what helps him not to get caught up in the politics  that tend to hinder progress on an international scale. Plus, it keeps him from staying within this diplomatic bubble.  He understands there real consequences that can occur when there is a lack of co-operation. Orinakin’s philanthropy probably would not be as extensive either if he didn’t have those gifts from the Gods.

[Rhia]

Yeah that is what I meant. When you study the law sometimes in order to find the best solution for society or in order to protect, your vision of justice or discipline a lawyer or judge are caught up in the politics and may want to rule based on these black and white concrete ideas and forget about the shades of grey.

In general -- in our world -- this may be true. That's debatable. However, we know for a fact that Selorin isn't this inflexible:

Chapter 9:

"I have sensed, sometimes very strongly, the remorse of someone I’m about to condemn.  And, sometimes, regrettably so, I’ll sense a complete lack of remorse, an utter lack of regret, even a complete willingness or determination to commit further crimes.  And I take those feelings into account.”

In other words, Selorin takes into consideration whether or not a person feels bad about the crime they've committed, which hardly indicates an unwillingness to see shades of gray in the law.

Whenever I think of Law and its relationship to society, I am always reminded of Shakespeare Measure for Measure.  Angelo does have good intentions he wants Vienna to be a morally virtuous society but he ideology and application of the law did not really reflect the reality of the situation.

I'm not following your use of this reference... Are you implying that Selorin abuses his power for personal reasons, like Angelo does with Isabella? (Trying to blackmail a would-be nun into having sex with him by holding her imprisoned brother's fate over her head.) Or that he acts in a hypocritical manner, imposing morality on others while acting in an immoral manner himself, like Angelo does? Please explain. 

With the amount of responsibilities, that Selorin has it would be easier if he applied a very strict application of law but his enhanced understanding allows him to build a system that meets the needs of the nation but also allows room for it to evolve and improve because of his connection with his citizens.

Okay, maybe I'm just not following your argument... wouldn't his ability to evolve and connect to his citizens negate the idea that it's easier for him to become disconnected? The ability to evolve and connect has nothing to do with the gifts that Selorin received from the gods upon ascending (an understanding of the law, history of the law, and the mad lie detector skillz); they are emotional traits that he would have to possess himself.

...actually, reading over the Remin part of the post, I'm pretty sure I'm not following your argument. You said a couple posts back that the gifts that the  receive after ascension are necessary because they are dealing with professions that are more trying on their willingness to understand the people. Are you saying now that this is the case? Or that it isn't? I don't think we've seen any indication of this in the text... Anorian judges in general, not just Selorin, don't seem particularly likely to view the law in black and white (such as the judge who was so much in sympathy with the feelings of the vandals posting anti-Jacacean graffiti that he wanted to give them a more lenient sentence). The priesthood in general, not just Remin, don't seem to have anything in common with the Catholic church, aside from their vow of celibacy, which is taken for a completely different reason. With one notable exception, we've yet to see a priest become less understanding of the people he serves because of the burdens placed upon him, or his connection to a god.

I can understand the thought that maybe these would be the reactions of priests and judges in our world (based on the bureaucratic structure of the world we live in) but, from what we've seen, they aren't the reactions of priests and judges in Orina Anoris. That being the case, why with the older siblings would there be a "greater chance of them disconnecting emotionally from their people" based on their profession?

In regards to Orinakin, b I kind of think that his ability to read people  is what helps him not to get caught up in the politics  that tend to hinder progress on an international scale. Plus, it keeps him from staying within this diplomatic bubble.  He understands there real consequences that can occur when there is a lack of co-operation. Orinakin’s philanthropy probably would not be as extensive either if he didn’t have those gifts from the Gods.

What? I was under the impression that most of what Orinakin does involves getting caught up in politics -- he does so with altruistic goals, but get involved he does. And from what we've seen, diplomacy as Orinakin must practice it does anything but provide a bubble. As for his philanthropy not being as extensive without his gifts... then why do his assistants want to be philanthropic without possessing his empathy? Why do every-day Anorians step up to help during the festival of Setanoto? In general -- and not without exceptions, mind you -- the Anorians seem to be a relatively philanthropic people. The cialexes. There's no way to pinpoint exactly how much of Orinakin's altruism comes naturally to him, how much is ingrained in him because of his society, and how much is a result of the gods.

For that matter, saying "Orinakin wouldn't be as extensively philanthropic without his gifts" is like saying "Orina Anoris wouldn't be as ass-kickingly awesome if it wasn't blessed by the gods." Orinakin does have gifts, Orina Anoris is blessed... 'what if' is not really relevant to a discussion of who holds the most influence, or who is most mature. You can't separate Orinakin from his empathy (remember -- he was born with it), just like you can't separate Orina Anoris from its god-given blessings.

[Magical_Jen]

I'm not following your use of this reference... Are you implying that Selorin abuses his power for personal reasons, like Angelo does with Isabella? (Trying to blackmail a would-be nun into having sex with him by holding her imprisoned brother's fate over her head.) Or that he acts in a hypocritical manner, imposing morality on others while acting in an immoral manner himself, like Angelo does? Please explain. 

In regards to the Measure for Measure reference. I guess what I was trying to say that to say is that because the disorder and immoral behaviour seem to overwhelm the Duke and disgust Angelo his first reaction was to use a strict application of law in order to fix the city.   Sorry did not mean to imply that Selorin values are easily compromised by his libido.  Angelo did not have the ability to show compassion and be a strict disciplinarian. Angelo anxieties in a way is what made him appear harsh, where as  even when Selorin is places in stressful situation  he is still a great defender of the law but  I feel like he is also more willing to consider extenuating circumstances as well. I doubt that Selorin would have sentences Claudio to death. I guess we can say that because of Selorin ability his application of the law can be more precise.

Okay, maybe I'm just not following your argument... wouldn't his ability to evolve and connect to his citizens negate the idea that it's easier for him to become disconnected? The ability to evolve and connect has nothing to do with the gifts that Selorin received from the gods upon ascending (an understanding of the law, history of the law, and the mad lie detector skillz); they are emotional traits that he would have to possess himself.

No is abilities is what prevents him from disconnecting because it allows him to have a greater understanding of human natures. When you add that with his understanding of law, Selorin unlike the other judges would be able to apply the law more precisely.  in regards to my comment on leaving room for Anorian law to evolve, what i was think of is
The Anorian legal system is able to evolve because Selorin understanding of human nature and the law may lead him to create new precedents in order to have more accurate judicial system.

I can understand the thought that maybe these would be the reactions of priests and judges in our world (based on the bureaucratic structure of the world we live in) but, from what we've seen, they aren't the reactions of priests and judges in Orina Anoris. That being the case, why with the older siblings would there be a "greater chance of them disconnecting emotionally from their people" based on their profession?

(This thought was written after my post below) mm I wonder if we can uses Namidakeli  as an example of a priest that had disconnceted from this people.  he had begun to deleagate mroe and more of his work on to the priest under him and he strated to see less and less people.  could we guess that he started to do this becasie he felt that a man of his age,his postion, and the number or contirbution he made to Orina Anoris no longer had to reach out tot he people. So he used his office and cermony in order to disconnect.

I just think that the bureaucracy, the politics, and the ceremony that a part of religion, diplomacy and law tend to create distance between the leaders and citizens. One would think that a person like Remin would spend more time talking with his other high priest writing letters to other religious officials and political leaders. Yet we still see Remin actively take part in blessing his citizens. If I went to the Vatican, I cannot imagine that I would ever get to receive personal council form Benedict XVI but we know that Remin’s citizens can come and see him. The same goes for Orinakin and Selorin I wouldn’t expect someone in there position to converser closely with there citizens I would expect them to delegate and receive a lot more secondhand or third hand accounts on  what is happening with their people  from what there advisor tell them. However, their enhanced abilities seem to drive them to want to hear and understand the opinion of the people they want to have that deeper connection and without that ability, I think that Remin, Orinakin, and Selorin would be more likely to stay within this bubble. 

What? I was under the impression that most of what Orinakin does involves getting caught up in politics -- he does so with altruistic goals, but get involved he does. And from what we've seen, diplomacy as Orinakin must practice it does anything but provide a bubble. As for his philanthropy not being as extensive without his gifts... then why do his assistants want to be philanthropic without possessing his empathy?

This may seem a little harsh but Orinakin’s assistance and his citizens are not as important or hold a many responsibilities that Orinakin does.  It is easier for Anorian who works 9 to 5 to spend three times a week helping to set up the festival of Setanot. You can almost count it as an extra hobby or something they do to pass the time.  Orinakin's assistance might be involved in philanthropic causes but they may be assigned to a few tasks and have to deal with one specific cause. Orinakin on the other hand in one week may draft 15 treaties, sign 5 of them, attend four international conferences, visit three nations, try to find a way to end conflict on the plains, and still make time to write home to offer his two cents on what his sibling should do for the Setanot festival.  theis is going back to points I made before,but Orinakins empthay is what may drive to take extra steps to rememeber not only to attend international conferces but also  find ways to build a play ground for the children in Vafiance.

[Rhia]

No is abilities is what prevents him from disconnecting because it allows him to have a greater understanding of human natures. When you add that with his understanding of law, Selorin unlike the other judges would be able to apply the law more precisely.  in regards to my comment on leaving room for Anorian law to evolve, what i was think of is
The Anorian legal system is able to evolve because Selorin understanding of human nature and the law may lead him to create new precedents in order to have more accurate judicial system.

Yes, but I don't see that Selorin's understanding of human nature or willingness to adapt is based exclusively on him having received certain gifts from the gods. Part of that is him as a person, not just him as the fourth Sibling. Besides, the mindset implies that all other Anorian judges are basically superfluous. As for the potential to disconnect... see my previous post.

(This thought was written after my post below) mm I wonder if we can uses Namidakeli  as an example of a priest that had disconnceted from this people.  he had begun to deleagate mroe and more of his work on to the priest under him and he strated to see less and less people.  could we guess that he started to do this becasie he felt that a man of his age,his postion, and the number or contirbution he made to Orina Anoris no longer had to reach out tot he people. So he used his office and cermony in order to disconnect.

See my previous post -- he was the exception that I mentioned. Keep in mind that he is the exception, not the rule, and that much of his bad behavior seems to be linked to his anger at having to obey a High Priest who is... what, a third of his age?

I just think that the bureaucracy, the politics, and the ceremony that a part of religion, diplomacy and law tend to create distance between the leaders and citizens. One would think that a person like Remin would spend more time talking with his other high priest writing letters to other religious officials and political leaders. Yet we still see Remin actively take part in blessing his citizens. If I went to the Vatican, I cannot imagine that I would ever get to receive personal council form Benedict XVI but we know that Remin’s citizens can come and see him. The same goes for Orinakin and Selorin I wouldn’t expect someone in there position to converser closely with there citizens I would expect them to delegate and receive a lot more secondhand or third hand accounts on  what is happening with their people  from what there advisor tell them. However, their enhanced abilities seem to drive them to want to hear and understand the opinion of the people they want to have that deeper connection and without that ability, I think that Remin, Orinakin, and Selorin would be more likely to stay within this bubble.

Anorian society is structured differently than our world. Unlike Benedict XVI, it seems to be understood and even expected that Remin will be available to his people for counsel. Yes, the abilities of the siblings do have some impact on how much they involve themselves, but that's not all there is to it.

This may seem a little harsh but Orinakin’s assistance and his citizens are not as important or hold a many responsibilities that Orinakin does.  It is easier for Anorian who works 9 to 5 to spend three times a week helping to set up the festival of Setanot. You can almost count it as an extra hobby or something they do to pass the time.  Orinakin's assistance might be involved in philanthropic causes but they may be assigned to a few tasks and have to deal with one specific cause. Orinakin on the other hand in one week may draft 15 treaties, sign 5 of them, attend four international conferences, visit three nations, try to find a way to end conflict on the plains, and still make time to write home to offer his two cents on what his sibling should do for the Setanot festival.  theis is going back to points I made before,but Orinakins empthay is what may drive to take extra steps to rememeber not only to attend international conferces but also  find ways to build a play ground for the children in Vafiance.

Yes, but his citizens and assistants also have less to work with. A regular Anorian citizen working three times a week to help is taking time away from their job, their family, and possibly their own rather limited coffers in order to do so. That wasn't the point I was trying to make, though -- what I was saying was, as a whole, the Anorians seem inclined to be charitable (with some exceptions). Therefore, we can't say how much of Orinakin's drive is based on the society he was raised in, and how much on his empathy.

There's also the expectations placed on him as one of the rulers, his own feelings that power and luxury require an equal part of responsibility, and his own personality... to say that the only thing that drives him to take those extra steps is his gods-given empathy is undervaluing his complexity as a character. Yes, that's a part of it, but it's just a part of what makes Orinakin.